Savage Love Episode 1039

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_11] You're listening to the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage's sex and relationship show for grown-ups. If you're under 18, get out of here, young'un!

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01] If you're stuck in a relationship quandary Or if you're looking for sexual harmony On the Savage Lovecast

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_06] Straight men. Straight men would do everything gay men do if they could, but they can't because women won't. I have a receipt, a recent receipt, when porn star Bonnie Blue announced she wanted to fuck 1,000 straight men in a day. 1,000 straight men showed up. More. They lined up on the street, right there, in front of God, the cameras, their mothers, and everybody. Straight men would if they could.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_06] A gay bathhouse is a whorehouse staffed by volunteers. And if I told straight men there were businesses in basically every major city all over the world that were full of women, bathhouses full of women, women of all ages, body types, and points along the spectrum of conventional attractiveness, and these women were already naked and wanted to fuck men, but didn't want to know their names or ever see those men again, we'd see straight men lined up outside those places too in their thousands.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_06] Not all straight men, but a lot of them. Same way not all gay men go to bathhouses and sex clubs. I mean, I'm a gay man. I don't go to bathhouses. I've made this point, I don't know how many times, to straight guys. That gay men aren't uniquely slutty. That straight men would do everything gay men do if they could, but they can't, so they don't. And after having this conversation hundreds of times, I can say with confidence that straight men, many of them, are jealous. Some, not all.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_06] Well, they tell me, the jealous ones, the honest ones, men are easy. Women are hard. And then they ask almost invariably, why can't women, why can't straight women be more like gay men? Content warning, I am thinking out loud here about Cornell, which is a dangerous thing to do. I am a man sitting in front of a microphone alone running his mouth about Cornell. All right, here we go.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_06] Guys, my straight guys, here was a woman who was down to fuck in a pretty gay-coated way. Down for a threesome, down to snort K off a dude's dick. And what does she get? A promised threesome? Praise? Gratitude? Thanks? No. She gets offered up to 57 other men as free pussy. She gets raped and gossiped about.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_06] It's been crazy to see people, men, crazy to see men, some of the worst men online, sticking up for the men in that room by saying that this woman was foolish to trust them. Dudes. Arguing that a woman, foolish enough to get drunk with a man or use drugs with a man or agree to have a threesome with a man and his friend, can't complain about getting raped by a group of men because trusting a man is always a mistake, is not the defense of men that you think it is.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_06] Reading about Cornell and some of the crazy things I've seen gay men posting about Cornell had me thinking about this interview I did once for the column with a man who was into being a cum dump. He likes to go to a new city, spend the night taking anon loads. Puts an ad up on a hookup site with the name of his hotel and his room number and waits ass up, blindfolded in that room, on the bed, with the door cracked open.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_06] The part of me that was never able to share a can of Coke with my sister, I couldn't do this cum dump thing. The part of me that was traumatized by the AIDS crisis, yeah, I couldn't do this cum dump thing. But setting those me problems aside, I had another objection. I asked the guy while we were on the phone, doesn't he worry about violence?

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_06] Some dude robbing him or beating the shit out of him or, yes, violating him sexually, escalating, doing something he didn't agree to or want to do or invite to have done. And this guy, this self-identified, out-and-proud cum dump, told me that it has never happened. He's one of those guys who skews the averages for the rest of us gay guys, one of those gay guys who's had thousands and thousands of sex partners.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_06] And not once, not one guy ever has walked into his hotel room and tried to do anything that that guy wasn't invited to do. No guy's ever demanded his wallet. No guy has ever assaulted him sexually or otherwise. What is going on here?

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_06] I think when he's alone in his room and some other man walks into that room, that other man sees another man who, despite his subordinate position, they still see on a fundamental baseline level as their equal. Yes, the guy with his ass in the air is their equal, an autonomous individual. Straight men, too many of them, particularly in frat houses, alone in a room with a woman.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_06] A woman disinhibited by alcohol, incapacitated by drugs. Tens of thousands of years of human culture, it's the patriarchy, stupid, are whispering into that man's ears or those men's ears that this woman is their property. And what better way to prove a woman is your property?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_06] What better way to demonstrate ownership to yourself and your bros than by sharing it, her, by giving it, her, away, by sending that free pussy text. So, guys, you wonder why women don't act like gay men?

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_06] It's because you don't treat them like men whose bodily autonomy and boundaries and personhood you have to respect because you see on some enculturated reptile brain level women as property. Gay men, we are not off the hook. The patriarchy whispers in our ears, too. We can be sexist and misogynistic. But women are never alone with us when they're at their most vulnerable.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_06] Our sexism, our misogyny, it's real and it does harm broadly and generally, but it does less harm to individual women specifically. So that's how a guy can put his room number up and his ass up in the air and invite strange men into his room with some assurance, the assumption that he's going to be safe.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_06] And a woman in a frat house, after having a few drinks and snorting a line of K, can't make the same assumption. Not all gay men can be trusted, but enough can be. Not all straight men can't be trusted, but enough can't be. That's why women who are into dick, women who are into men, don't act more like men who are into dick and men. I mean, not all women into dick would act like gay men if they could.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_06] Women are generally less interested in anonymous group sex and anonymous sex, and some argue sex generally than men are. But those women who might be down for a threesome with you and your buddy, even down to snort a line of K off your dick, they're not going to do that in a world where men in the room don't see them as equals.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_06] And the men who aren't in the room, some, not all, but too many, think that any woman who goes into a room like that with a man or men alone deserves what she gets. Final thought, I don't want to come across like a hypocrite or a prude. I lost my virginity in a threesome. I met my boyfriend in a threesome. There's time in your life. There's plenty of time to have that threesome. We keep talking about how Gen Z isn't having sex.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_06] Gen Z isn't out there taking risks. I want people to get out there, have sex, take risks. But maybe in your late teens, early 20s, and this goes for everybody, and I'm not talking about anyone involved in the Cornell gang rape or the victim in specific. This goes for everybody. Get out there, have sex, take risks. But you don't need to have all the sex in a single night. If you're 19 or 20, 22, 23, you have so much time.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_06] You can take it slow. Take it. Get it. But you can ramp up to varsity-level sex slowly. There's no rush. All right, coming up on this week's show, a gay man doesn't understand foot fetishes, but he's happy to shove his webbed toes in the faces of guys who do have foot fetishes. And Dr. Ina Park returns to explain the annoying phenomenon of false positives when you're getting STI tests. What do they mean?

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_06] And on the Magnum, I have a brawl, a friendly, good-natured brawl, with Bicon Claire Perlman of Sex Clarified about bisexuality. That is, again, on the Magnum, which you can subscribe to and give as a gift at savage.love. You get more lovecasts, more guests, more calls, no ads, and more savage love when you become a subscriber. Go to savage.love slash subscribe right now to get more show and support the show by becoming one of my subs. And coming up this Friday on After Action Report.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_07] We were at a camp together called the Spank Bank and learning how to have good etiquette with spanking. And I kind of looked and I was like, guys, we should go to the Orgy Dome.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_06] If you want to hear the rest of that story, and believe me, you do, look for After Action Report in your podcast feed, Magnum and Micro alike, this Friday. All right, on to the first call. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep, makers of the best mattresses ever. And right now, my listeners get 27% off site-wide when you go to helixsleep.com slash savage.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_11] This episode of the Lovecast is brought to you by the good folks at Squarespace. They make it easy to build a beautiful website, blog, or online store. Head on over to squarespace.com slash savage for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code savage to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_06] This episode is brought to you by Quince, high quality essential clothing at radically low prices. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash savage for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash savage.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_04] Dear Dan, I'm a 38-year-old straight male in NYC. My wife and I have been together for 12 years, married for eight. We have a two-year-old daughter. We're great co-parents. We've been best friends for years and I love her. The problem, of course, is the sex. I was attracted to my wife when we first got together, but I never felt a strong erotic pull toward her. Her weight was somewhat of an issue for me, and she wasn't confident in her appearance or sexuality.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_04] But I had such a strong emotional connection with her that I paid for a strong companionship with her with the less than ideal sex is the price of admission, and we just never really talked about it. I spent years trying to fix the problem, including encouraging my wife to change her appearance in ways that made her feel insecure. I also cheated more than once, but just bottled up my dissatisfaction and recommitted to the marriage. Eventually, I had a two-year affair with a married co-worker, and when my wife discovered it, we separated this past June.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_04] Shortly afterward, my co-worker ended our affair, and that also hurt. I deeply regret what I did to my wife and feel like an idiot for blowing up my marriage over my unavailable affair partner. However, I'm also happier and more alive now that I'm separated. I'm rebuilding a social life I'd let disappear during my marriage. I'm getting out. I'm meeting people. I'm volunteering, joining clubs. I recently met a woman I'm strongly attracted to physically and intellectually, and it makes me wonder if companionship and erotic desire might actually exist out there for me.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_04] I'm also starting to admit that I'm probably a little bisexual. I grew up in the Deep South in a conservative, fundamentalist, Christian, Trump-loving family, and I've carried a lot of shame around sex. I think that makes it harder to figure out what I actually want. My best friend thinks that years of reading Savage Love has given me false ideas about marriage. He says marriage is a choice between companionship and eroticism, and that I should grow up, stay with my wife, and accept the tradeoff. Maybe he's right, but I can't tell whether I want my wife back or I'm just nostalgic for our life together.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_04] Ironically, the sex with my wife got better during the year I was having the affair, and I also finally talked to her about my bisexuality, and she was receptive. So maybe we could build something after all. I'm just scared of putting in years of work, only to end up right back where I started. Divorce, though, is terrifying. And I'm also happy and excited right now, living separately and for myself. So what do I do? Should we go to counseling and see what's possible, or accept that we love each other deeply and might be better off just as friends and co-parents?

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_04] I don't want to blow up my marriage chasing a fantasy, but I also don't want to spend the rest of my life settling for a sex life I've never been happy with. And Dan, it also hasn't escaped me that after reading your column for 20 years, I've somehow managed to violate or ignore basically all your rules and do my best to fuck everything up. I guess I can anticipate your advice, but following it is easier said than done.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_06] Thank you for what you said there. At the end of your call, get a lot of calls from people who say they've been reading me or listening to me for years and years, sometimes decades. And then they go on to describe a series of choices that they made that don't align with what I was trying to put across. That they clearly were reading and listening, but not really reading, not really listening, not internalizing.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_06] So thank you for what you said there at the end, that you basically broke every rule I tried to lay down. Although some people might jump in now to say I have occasionally given people permission to get out there and have an affair, to do what they needed to do in order to stay married and stay sane. Usually that permission slip is handed out in cases where a marriage has been sexless for a very long time. It doesn't sound like your marriage was sexless, so you wouldn't have gotten that permission slip as you seem to realize there at the end.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_06] Also, yeah, encouraging your wife to change her body, to change her appearance in ways that made her feel not supported, but insecure. That was not okay. Marrying someone that you weren't sexually attracted to or the sex wasn't great. I can't fault you for that. I get so many letters from people where I call them the butt letters.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_06] They go into the butt file, B-U-T, not B-U-T-T, where the letter opens with everything's great. Love my husband, love my wife. We're such good friends. We have such a great relationship. We're such great companions. We're such great parents. Love everything about them. Love everything about us together. But. And the but is always the sex doesn't work. And the sex has never worked. We've never had a strong sexual connection.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_06] And I would fault you for marrying someone that you didn't have, didn't share a strong sexual connection with, if that wasn't something that the culture encourages people to do. We get these messages that sex is trivial. That if you meet somebody and you fall in love and the emotions are there and the shared life goals are there and your great friends, great companions, that it would be stupid to end the relationship.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_06] That it would be stupid to end the relationship, to break up with that person, to go try to find somebody else just because something as trivial as the sex isn't great. You can work on the sex maybe. And then I get a butt letter 20 years into that relationship because the sex doesn't work and has never worked. And the message we receive from the culture, so many contradictory messages about sex. It's so trivial that you shouldn't prioritize a sexual connection in a relationship.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_06] And yet it's so important that you couldn't do this trivial thing with anybody else without it constituting an enormous betrayal. So lots to fault you for. It sounds like there are things you're taking responsibility for, faults you recognize. But I wouldn't necessarily fault you for that. That is a mistake that lots of people make. And then I hear about all the fucking time and try to help people pick up the pieces from all the fucking time. All right.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_06] Now I'm going to fault you for something else. You make this sound like it is entirely your choice about whether to get back together with your wife. You don't mention what she wants, how she feels. You say that you're happier now on your own. Sounds like you've moved out, even if you are not yet divorced. Is she happier on her own? What does she want? Does she want you back? Is it up to you whether you are taken back?

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_06] She gets to make this call too. What does she want? She doesn't want to be married to somebody who criticizes her appearance, who makes her feel inadequate, who isn't attracted to her, who doesn't enjoy sex with her. There might be somebody out there who would be attracted to her in the body that she's in, in the shape that she's in. And you fucking the fuck off. You getting the divorce. You stepping aside might allow her to get out there and find that person. Or maybe she doesn't want to do that work. Maybe she doesn't want to find that person.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_06] Maybe you just left it out of the call. That your wife wants to get back together with you. That you're in couples counseling. That you're doing the thing. The things that you do in the wake of an affair. And thinking about both of you thinking about getting back together. If that's the case, I would, in your shoes, knowing what you now know about yourself, that sexual satisfaction is really important to you. And sexual satisfaction is not something that you've ever found within your marriage.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_06] You can, as a listener, you should know this. You can be married to someone, be in a companionate relationship with someone. And seek sexual satisfaction outside the relationship. While giving your partner, giving your wife in this instance, in your case, permission to do the same. If that's something that your wife wants. You know now that you are probably incapable of honoring a monogamous commitment.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_06] You know now that some degree of sexual satisfaction and sexual excitement is something that you would literally blow up your marriage and your life for. And you did. And so as not to set up your wife for identical heartbreak in six months or a year or two years or three years when you cheat again. If you want to renegotiate the terms of the commitment you're going to make to her.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_06] Again, assuming she wants to take you back at all. Again, assuming she's not happier with you out of her house and out of her life. Just as you seem to be happier on your own. Don't make a monogamous commitment. Stay married. Stay married. If that's something you both want. And have an open relationship. Have a DADT agreement. Have some allowance for outside sexual contact. But you're going to have to have a brutally honest conversation with each other.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_06] Where you acknowledge that as much as you may love each other. All the things that are good about your relationship. The sex has never been great. And if it was never great for you, it was never great for her either. And so, what's the fix here? What's the solution here? What's the compromise or the accommodation that would allow you two to stay together without you cheating on her again. And hurting her again in this exact same way. And if an open relationship.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_06] Companionate relationship. Relationship with some accommodation. Some allowance for. Some understanding. A DADT arrangement. If that's not something that your wife could accept. Don't draw this out. Endlessly. And if she wants you back. But wants you back in a monogamous relationship. And you know that you are not going to be able to honor that monogamous commitment. Over the long haul. And you know that you will not be able to honor it. You have proven that to yourself. To me. And to her. Don't make that monogamous commitment again.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_06] And if that's a condition that she sets to get back together. Rather don't do her the disservice of getting back together with her under those conditions. Do her and yourself the favor of getting a divorce.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_08] Hey Dan. I'm a man in my upper 60s. 30 years ago. I had some men fawning over my feet. I still don't understand it. Anyway. Recently. I was at a male nudist camp. And there was a man who was going crazy over my big toes.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_08] And wanted to enjoy my big toes up his bum. And my boyfriend. He wasn't interested in his. So I did not participate in his request. But it did make me curious about some other things. So I afterwards. The week after. I met someone online.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_08] Who wanted to enjoy making a sweet love to my feet. And I said okay. And he came into my hotel room where I met him. And he proceeded. He was in his 30s. And he. With his tongue. Went crazy over my feet. And then with his manhood. Proceeded to.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_08] Do his thing. And asked if he could ejaculate. And he did. All over my feet. I have to admit. What a wild feeling. I just thought. Wow. I'm not a foot virgin anymore. But. I don't understand. I'm told I have long toes. I have. I have flippers for my feet. And my middle toes. I've been told they're kind of web. That is a family feature.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_06] You got cut off. Before you could get to the question. Assuming there. Was a question. Here. All I know. All we know for sure. Your feet still got it. 30 years ago. You had men. Fawning over your feet. You say you still don't understand that. Surely. 60 something. Man of the world. Going to nudist camps. And having sexual adventures. And having a boyfriend. You are old enough. And wise enough.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_06] And worldly enough. To know that there are people out there. Men out there. Who are into feet. There's always been men out there. Who are into your feet. In particular. Your webbed toes. Maybe they were all. As young adults. Exposed to Patrick Duffy. In the man from Atlantis. There's a pop culture reference. From 50 fucking years ago. For the kids. Google it. Yeah. Some people like feet. And some people. Have noticed your feet.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_06] Your long toes. And have always been into your feet. And I'm so glad you finally got together. With somebody. And let that person. Have at your feet. Yeah. You can teach an old dog new tricks. Or you can as an old dog. Have new experiences. Try new things. Yeah. Maybe this call got mislaid. Maybe this call was. For after action report. And not for. The love cast. But I detect. The whiff of a question.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_06] In your. Call. Even though you got cut off there at the end. And we didn't get to the question. Which is. What's up with this? Why are guys so into your feet? You got hot feet. And you enjoyed having your foot. Your feet. Made sweet. Sweet. Love to. You're in your late 60s. We are not made of time. I think you need to make up now. For lost time. For all the guys. Who were into your feet. 30 years ago. When you were a younger man.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_06] That you were weirded out by. And didn't let get anywhere near your feet. Much less ejaculate all over your feet. Or insert your big toes into their butts. Put your feet out there. You would be the rarest thing. Which is a foot fetish top. Most people with a foot fetish. Most people into feet. Are in search of feet. To worship. Really get off on feet. And sometimes that passion for feet. Weirds people out. Who don't share it.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_06] I think allowing somebody with a foot fetish. To go to town on your feet. Is the lowest possible bar. Where being GGG. Good giving and game. Is concerned. You just let somebody have at your feet. You lay back and enjoy it. If you're not ticklish. All to the better. But if they're just going to lick. Suck. And come all over. How could you not? I don't have a foot fetish. But I've let guys with foot fetishes. Do that to my feet. How could you not? Enjoy the pleasure. That you have the power. To give someone.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_06] If you have beautiful feet. Who is into feet. Into your feet. You clearly have beautiful feet. Webbed toes. I'm sure that we dove into some foot fetish forums on Reddit. I'm sure there is a dedicated Reddit. Just for guys who are into feet. With webbed toes. Not going to live forever. Not going to have those toes. Webbed or not. Forever. You have a special gift. I think you need to share. And now you know.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_06] It wouldn't just be you indulging. The weirdo with the thing for feet. You are now officially a weirdo. With a thing. For your own feet. For a guy grooving. And coming. On your feet. Make up for lost time. Get out there. Have fun. Enjoy those feet. While you have still got them.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_11] This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. They make it easy to build a website. Blog. Or online store. I use Squarespace for my band. We use Squarespace for Dan's special film festival. You will use Squarespace for your cool business or creative project. Squarespace has state-of-the-art design tools. So anyone can build a classy, professional-looking online presence that fits your vibe. Get discovered fast with integrated Squarespace SEO tools.

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[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02] Hi, Dan. I'm a 50-year-old woman happily married for 16 years with kids who are 12 and 14. I thought we'd grow old together. We've always had sex two or three times a week, but I haven't spontaneously wanted or initiated it because I was actually horny in probably 10 years. Then about a year ago, I got a crush on a woman and arguably fell in love with her. She was also happily married and has had been with women before. For me, this was completely new.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02] The feelings were mutual, but nothing physical happened as we cut off our connection to protect our marriages. I thought that might be the end of it. It wasn't. Now I'm horny like a teenage boy and attracted to so many women. With my husband's knowledge, I've since kissed another woman and I really liked it. Around the same time, I started hormones and occasionally using THC, which makes me hornier and better able to let go sexually.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02] My husband and I have been slowly exploring E&M with individuals and couples counseling. He worked incredibly hard to support me. His biggest request was tell me every fucking thing, even the hard things. And I did. Our marriage actually got better, more openness, sex, and connection. Then 48 hours ago, I found a hidden camera pointed at our bed. He admitted he'd secretly recorded for about 10 months because my sexuality made him insecure and it gave him a sense of control.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02] He saw me masturbating, something he'd always begged to see, but I'd carry deep shame around and had never really done until this awakening. Here are private conversations with my closest friends. Sometimes he'd ask me questions he already knew the answers to. I feel profoundly violated. My gut says run for the woods, but he's incredibly remorseful. And this is a man I love who gave me patience and grace while I figure myself out.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02] Do I give him the opportunity to try to repair this instead of cutting and running? I keep imagining myself 20 years from now. What if I walk away from an incredible partner, blow up my kid's family, and discover the grass wasn't actually greener? But what if I stay because I'm terrified of losing everything and minimize something I shouldn't get past? How much of this is midlife clarity or crisis, hormones, or THC, expanded sexuality, or betrayal?

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02] How do I know if we can repair this? And how the fuck do I trust myself to know the difference?

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_06] Jesus Christ. That was not the plot twist I expected. That was more jump scare than plot twist. Usually a question that starts like yours. Married woman, exploring her sexuality, discovering that she's bisexual, attracted to women, husband, being supportive along for the ride. Usually the plot twist then is you met a woman, caught feelings for this woman, and now you don't know what to do.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_06] And of course the plot twist here is this profound violation of your privacy, this profound betrayal. Should you forgive him? Should you take him back? No, no, you shouldn't. Not after such a violation of your privacy of your person. I don't necessarily mean you should leave him, but I don't think you should.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_06] I don't see how you possibly could forgive him and let him in again and be as close to him, even if you stay married to him as you were in the past and were recently getting back to. Telling people to get a divorce, and I'm sure everybody out there listening is in their heads right now or even out loud right now in their cars telling you to get a divorce. Telling someone else to get a divorce is easy.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_06] Actually getting a divorce is hard. There are financial considerations, social considerations, pressures that might tip the scales in favor of staying if not forgiving. There are logistical considerations. There are, in your case, kids to consider. Kids who've done nothing wrong and shouldn't be made to suffer for the sins of their father. If you stay, I think that would mean it would require you transitioning, you and your husband

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_06] transitioning, hopefully to a low conflict, respectful, loving, companionate co-parenting relationship, which is where this relationship was heading. Sounds like it was where your marriage was at for a while. And maybe that's the best that could be made of your marriage going forward. Because this betrayal, it just feels impossible to get past.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_06] It would feel for me if I were in your shoes that I could never be fully open to my husband again. That doesn't mean you couldn't stay. But I don't know if you could ever reestablish the kind of baseline trust that you need in a marriage. Hell, the kind of baseline trust that you need to share a living space with a roommate. Well, that said, if the relationship becomes or remains high conflict,

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_06] then you might have to revisit the whole staying for the kids part of the reasoning around staying in this marriage. Because if this turns into a tense, high conflict, everyday shit show, if you're miserable in this marriage, then you're not punishing your kids for the sins of their father by leaving. You could wind up punishing your kids for the sins of their father by staying.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_06] You worry about leaving and it being 20 years from now and you looking back and thinking about what you lost. Also possible that 20 years from now you could look back and see what you've gained or have in your life, the things that you've gained. Maybe a female partner that you can love, that you can trust, is worthy of your trust. It wouldn't violate your privacy in the same way or at all, in any way, like your husband did.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_06] Look, if I were in your shoes and it was possible to stay, I would. I wouldn't stay though if it meant sharing a bedroom with this man, but if I could have my own space, I might just stay with him. If we had two teenagers or tween and a teenager, just so we could together get through the hectic high pressure relay race that is seeing kids through teenage years, through high school. If you can work on that

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_06] together cooperatively, maybe stay. If you can't, maybe go. And then when your kids are out of high school, when they're in college, when they're on their own, you could at that point revisit the question of whether you're going to leave your husband or not. That doesn't have to be a decision you make 48 hours after you found that camera hidden in your bedroom. Also one last terrible, no good,

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_06] really bad thought. You might want to check your kids' rooms for hidden cameras too and your bathrooms. And if there are more cameras, you should definitely divorce this motherfucker. Good luck. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep, makers of my favorite mattress, my boyfriend's favorite mattress, and just all around my favorite place to be. Helix makes the mattress for my two favorite things in the world happen, sleep and sex. And my Helix mattress, my Helix mattresses,

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_06] have them in more than one room. They make both infinitely better. Actually, Helix makes my three favorite things better, sleep, sex, and listening to show tunes, which I sometimes like to do, laying in bed. Whatever your favorite things to do, flat on your back, in bed, or on your side, or on top, make them better with Helix. With Helix, you take a sleep quiz that makes buying a mattress easy. It matches you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and sleep needs.

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[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00] Hello, Dan. I've had a number of partners over the last decade or so that have had HSV-2. They take their meds. They monitor it. It's never been a particular concern of mine. When I've gotten my annual STI test, at times I've gotten an HSV-2 test. And sometimes, you know, I panic a little and I'm like, is that rash, HSV-2? And usually people just, you know, they look at it and they go,

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00] that's obviously not. My question is my most recent provider, he does not do the screening for HSV-2. He says the test is not really meant as like an annual screening. He said there's too great of a possibility for false positives. And I'm trying to get a better understanding of what a false positive is. Is it, you know, if it tests positive, how do you know it's not HSV-2? Is it the kind of thing where if you go back and test again, it would come out negative? Or is it the kind of thing that, you know, you can

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00] test positive but not have it? I don't know how that works. I don't know how a false positive works here.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_06] Joining me to help tackle this question, returning guest superstar, Dr. Ina Park is an STI researcher and professor at the University of California, San Francisco School of Medicine. And she is the author. Of Strange Bedfellows, Adventures in the Science and History and Surprising Secrets of STDs. Dr. Park, welcome back to the Savage Lovecast. Thank you so much for coming back on.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_12] I am so excited to be here, Dan. And I love this intelligent and thoughtful question. And you know that I am the last person to talk someone out of getting an STI test. I'm talking people into getting STI testing all the time. But this is the one exception where I have to agree with this callers physician. The HSV blood test to which he's referring is rife with false positives. And he

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_12] asks a specific question about, well, what does a false positive mean? Does it mean if I were to retest that I would then come up negative? Or is it just that it's going to be continually positive and yet I don't actually have the infection?

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_06] You don't actually have herpes.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_12] And I don't have to have herpes. Exactly. So I'm going to say in my experience and based on, you know, my review of all the research in this area is that the test will often come up repeatedly positive when the person doesn't actually have herpes. And so here's the issue from the physician side of things. The last thing I want to do is give you a diagnosis of a chronic viral, you know, sexually transmitted infection when you don't have it. And so the issue with this

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_12] test is not only that it gives false positives, but when it gives a positive result, it's different than an HIV test where it's sort of a yes or no answer. This test gives low positive results and high positive results. So a lot of these low positive results, which are, you know, results when you get a numeric reading less than three and a half, about 50% of those based on the studies are false positives.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_12] So that is why your doc is hesitant to give this test, because if you do end up with a low positive, there's a very strong chance that you don't actually have herpes.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_06] And then what are you supposed to morally, ethically do with that information? Knowing, and give me a percentage here, like what percentage of positive herpes tests, HSV tests, are false positives? And then if you are the receiving end of a positive test and you may or may not actually be positive, it creates this burden. Like we are, people are supposed to disclose whether they have an STI. People will be asked whether they have an STI. And if you're asked if you have

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_06] herpes and you did have a positive and it's likely a false positive, what are you supposed to do with that information?

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_12] Yeah, what are you obligated to say, right? Well, here's the advice that I give to people. So when someone ends up with a low positive result, and I try not to just run this test just for no reason, but if someone comes to me and they've gotten the test elsewhere and it's a low positive, I'll say, look, I strongly recommend that you get a confirmatory test. So there are commercial laboratories that do offer some confirmatory testing. And the best test, actually, the gold standard test is actually offered by the University of Washington, which is in your very own neighborhood.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_12] Shout out to UW in Seattle. They actually do a test called a Western blot, which is what we used to use to confirm HIV way back in the day. And it is the gold standard test. It does not give false positives and gives very specific readings about whether or not you have HSV or herpes simplex virus type one that typically causes oral cold sores or HSV2. Why are we just using this Western blot test then?

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_12] It's really expensive and it's really slow. And so and not many people do it. And so here's the other issue is, is that there's so many false positive tests and there's not really great access to this University of Washington Western blot. And so therefore, there's a lot of people walking around with this sort of question mark of a diagnosis. And I always recommend that people get a confirmatory test if they can so that they don't feel obligated to disclose, especially if you've never had symptoms.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_12] If you've never had symptoms and you have a low positive result, there's a strong chance you don't actually have herpes. And so in that case, I don't want you going around telling people that you have something or sort of integrating that into your identity. You know what I mean? Of someone who's living with this virus when you don't actually have it.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_06] Whenever we talk about herpes, we have to address the stigma and shame, which with herpes, individual results may vary. Some people can have herpes that is recurring and severe and very painful, but that's rare. With most people, herpes, one outbreak, sometimes don't even notice they had an outbreak, never again an outbreak. People who've had more than one outbreak can get on valocyclovir,

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_06] other suppression meds, and never have an outbreak ever again and be much less infectious. The stigma attached to herpes exists out of all proportion for the actual impact that living with herpes has on the lives of the vast and overwhelming majority of people with herpes. Why is the stigma still so great despite all of the pushback from you, me, others, medical professionals, people doing STI

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_06] screenings? For decades, we've all been saying, everybody, it's not that big a deal. And yet, people go to pieces. I get calls from people who are like, I went to an orgy. I had sex with 20 people. I found out later one of those people had herpes, and now I feel I've been violated, and how dare they? And of course, if you're having sex with 20 people, you're signing up for exposure to herpes. And yet, the stigma is still so great. Why? Why is

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_06] the stigma so great? Why can't we roll this back? You know, that's a great question. I don't have the,

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_12] I don't think I have the definitive answer, but I will say that the fear of rejection is real, and the rejection that people do experience is real. And I think that they, people have been shamed and quote unquote slut shamed, I don't actually use that term, but made to think that they're, you know, contaminated or lesser than or any of the things that we associate with STIs. And so, and I think the fact that HSV or herpes simplex virus can't actually be cured is something that, you know,

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_12] compounds the stigma. And it's different with HIV now, Dan, because we have such a huge community of support around HIV and the ability to completely suppress HIV so that you can't transmit it to partners. We don't have that with herpes yet. I mean, you can suppress it and you can reduce your risk of transmitting by 50%, which is a lot, but it's not 100%. And so I do think that if we had better drugs, which by the way are in the pipeline, very exciting, and we're able to fully suppress

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_12] herpes simplex virus, I think that's going to go a long way in reducing the stigma. But for now, people are still afraid to disclose, you know, something that could get them rejected.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_06] I think that's really smart. With much less HIV stigma now in the world because the risk of transmission can be with PrEP eliminated. And if somebody has HIV and they're on their meds and they're compliant and their viral load is undetectable, they literally can't infect anybody. And that's drained away the stigma. There's still stigma out there, but a great deal of the stigma

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_06] attached to HIV. And we're not yet there with herpes. But I think we can get there. That's my goal. Hopefully we're going to get there. You say there are new drugs in the pipeline. So maybe once we get there with these new drugs, we will see the stigma finally fade.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_12] Yes. You know, I'm praying that the new drugs, some of them are very, very far along. They are going to be better at suppressing the virus. And if that is the case, I really think that we can make some movement in making a dent in the stigma. And that's what I'm, you know, hoping to keep fighting in the rest of my career.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_06] Dr. Ina Park, STI researcher, professor at the University of California, author of the really terrific memoir and highly entertaining memoir, Strange Bedfellows, Adventures in Science, History, and Surprising Secrets of STDs. Follow Ina Park on Instagram at InaParkMD. Dr. Park, thank you so much for coming back on the Savage Glovecast.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_12] Anytime, Dan.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_06] This episode is brought to you by Quince. Quince is my secret to looking good with absolute bare minimum effort. At Quince, they focus on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless, they're versatile, and they're designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day. Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $60, giving you the softness and quality

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[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_03] Hey, Dan. I'm a late 20s guy living in Europe, so I'm in a committed relationship with my boyfriend for three years. We're about to finally move in together in a few months, and I'm super excited, but my boyfriend, for various reasons I won't get into, has been pretty hesitant about this big step. So I don't want to put in more pressure on our relationship with what I'm calling about, which is the financial aspect of living together. The apartment I'll move into is one that he bought

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_03] alone since he didn't want to buy anything together. He said I wouldn't pay rent every month to him, but he thinks it's a pretty good idea for me to contribute some amount, maybe a few hundred dollars a month to a fund for our shared travel expenses. Obviously, this is a lot less than what I'd pay for rent, so this sounds pretty fair to me. But one of our friends said that this travel fund is basically the same as me paying rent without me getting any equity in the apartment. Something

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_03] important to mention is that he makes almost twice what I make. I'm not sure if you've spoken about this on here before, but any help would be much appreciated, including any creative ideas for how to make the most equitable arrangement. Equity shmequity, tell your friend to go fuck off.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_06] You're going to be living essentially rent-free. Your boyfriend of three years ready to move in, not yet ready to merge finances or give you half of his apartment and always asking in return for you living in his apartment with him rent-free is that you kick in a couple of hundred bucks a month to a shared savings account that he intends and you intend to blow on travel and you're

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_06] getting cold feet because you're paying pseudo rent but not getting equity in this apartment. Oh my God, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. And your boyfriend putting this down is his price of admission that he's not yet ready, although ready to move in together, not yet ready to merge finances, not yet ready to buy an apartment with you or sign over part of the apartment,

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_06] stake in the apartment, equity in the apartment that he has already purchased. I think you should accept those terms. And this is something you can revisit in the future. You will be socking money away. You will be paying much less into this vacation fund than you were paying for rent when you lived on your own. So you should sock that money away in savings. And then three years from now,

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_06] five years from now, 10 years from now, if you want to move, if you want to buy another apartment together, if indeed you want to own part of the apartment that he already owns, well, then he can marry your ass and you will have equity. Or with the money that you saved up over the years, not having to pay rent in the European capital where you live, you will be able to refinance the house, put some of your money in it and have some ownership stake. But you're not going to have that ownership stake

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_06] right now because your boyfriend isn't ready for that step. And you sitting still while a friend pours poison in your ear and convinces you that the couple of hundred bucks a month you're going to be kicking into this vacation fund is pseudo rent that you should be receiving some equity share in

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_06] this apartment in exchange for. No, just no, like take the win, dude. And definitely do put that money aside in case you want to buy an apartment with your boyfriend in the future. Or in case this relationship, you say your boyfriend is slightly hesitant about this step in case this relationship doesn't work out, that you're not fucked. You're going to need some savings in case you want to buy

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_06] an apartment together in the future, have an equity stake, or if in six months or a year from now, you realize that this was a mistake and you need to move out. But definitely stop listening to your friend who's creating a problem here where no problem exists. General advice though, if it works out long-term and you guys partner up and merge finances, if somebody makes twice what the other person makes, they should pay that increased percentage of a share of the rent or the utilities

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_06] or whatever. It should be proportionate to incomes if you're going to maintain separate banking accounts and checking accounts and savings accounts. But if you merge, well then it's all shared expenses. What time is it? It is time for listener feedback. First up, a few comments listeners left about last week's show in the comment threads at savage.love. Says South of Oz regarding teeth and blowjobs. Dan,

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_06] you are plain wrong. My partner uses her teeth on my cock and she practically demands. I bite her labia and clit just because it's not your thing, Dan. Don't assume others don't do it and enjoy it. I never assume that because I don't like it, other people don't like it. How much time do I spend in this show talking about cunnilingus? And I opened that response talking about my uncle who liked to have women bite his cock. So I know people do it and enjoy it. I just wish I didn't know this about my uncle.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_06] Says Zarlos about the same call as someone who writes erotic stories as a side hustle. I can say with a fair amount of confidence that the author describing cunnilingus with the words devouring with teeth and tongue did not mean those words literally. The alliteration with the T's gives it away. writing a sex scene is more poetry than prose. Says no cute name. The mom wondering whether she should tell her four adult children that she's asexual had me cackling out loud. What scenario

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_06] is she envisioning that would make this information relevant to her children? Do they routinely invite her to sex parties? And don't most kids of all ages try to pretend their parents are asexual? Says Jen about the same call. A very different take. To the ace mom, tell your kids, I am 55 years old. My mom just turned 80. She continues to grow and change as she ages and I have continued to learn from her. I'm so grateful for the continued learning and parenting.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_06] Maybe one of your kids, caller, will find out they are also ace as they age, in which case knowing about your journey would be so good for them. But just in general, it would be a gift to them for you to model what it means to keep discovering yourself well into middle age. All right, got something to say about something I said or something somebody else said. Jump into the comment thread at savage.love and

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_06] say it there. Or give us a call at 206-302-2064 and leave us a message or send a voice memo to q at savage.love. You can also send us your comments via text at 206-302-2064. You have my digits. You are invited to use them. And now, Savage Love listeners who called in with comments about last week's show get to have the last word on this week's show. Hey, Dan. This is a response to episode 1038,

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_05] the woman whose fiance is removing a tattoo from her previous marriage. Being someone who has a tattoo from a previous marriage, I can tell you that what it represents to me is a time in my life with my ex-husband that is very important. And to even think about removing it feels like erasing that amazing part of my history and my journey. So I would never do it. Yeah, she needs to stop.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_09] Hey, Dan. This is a response to the caller who had a question about the use of teeth during oral sex. I myself have been known to ask a skilled and trusted partner to use teeth when they're going down on me. Also requesting that they pinch and twist my nipples quite a bit during the same time. It can really get me to that point of orgasmic inevitability. And one of my favorite songs by

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_09] Lady Gaga is called Show Me Your Teeth. And when I listen to it, I think about my clit getting bit.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_10] Hey, Dan. This is a message for the caller who wrote in about the tongue and teeth question in the book. Just wanted to say that she has a really sexy voice and I have a tooth fetish. So if she wants to try out fighting me, she can.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_06] And we are going to leave it there. Got a question for me? Got a comment for us? Go to savage.love slash askdan to record and upload your comment or your question directly onto our website or email us at voice memo at q at savage.love or give us a call at 206-302-2064. And if you tried something new and you want to tell someone about it, why not tell me and my listeners? Email us at q at savage.love. Let us know what you tried and you might be my next guest on After Action Report.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_06] Hump, the best dirty little film festival in the world is back. The fall tour has kicked off and Hump will soon be cruising to a city near you. This weekend, you can catch Hump in Ann Arbor, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Eugene, Madison, Minneapolis, Missoula, New Orleans and Olympia snag tickets. Watch the trailer right now at humpfilmfest.com. Follow me at bluesky at dansevige. Follow me on Instagram at dansevige. Follow Claire Perlman on Instagram at sexclarified and check out her

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_06] website, sexclarified.com. And if you want to spice things up, check out her guide, Unvanilla Your Sex Life, which you can find via her website, sexclarified.com. The Savage Love Cast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy in the tech savvy at risk youth. We'll all be back at you next week from the installment of the Savage Love Cast. Thanks for downloading.